tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post335161188186087955..comments2024-02-14T11:04:27.663-05:00Comments on Free and Responsible Search: Unitarian Universalism and the Working ClassDoug Muderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04666144843949850394noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-75233929877846659672011-04-10T04:04:35.408-04:002011-04-10T04:04:35.408-04:00Doug, have you investigated this idea any further?...Doug, have you investigated this idea any further? The relationship between class and theology is something that continues to puzzle me, even beyond UUism.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17980181582122445265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-60716205327143085212007-04-25T19:06:00.000-04:002007-04-25T19:06:00.000-04:00Belatedly coming into this incarnation of one of t...Belatedly coming into this incarnation of one of the most important questions among us; I remember a few months ago asking some ministerial colleagues what they thought the big taboo subject was for UUs these days, and class issues was a unanimous response. <BR/><BR/>Since the church plant I am with is in an area where people are either retired blue collar or would love to aspire to what used to be called "blue collar" jobs, here is a recent candid observation/question of my own that might add something to this wonderful conversation. <BR/><BR/>I have noted that getting people to ask questions, on all levels, not just about spiritual matters but of their own attitudes and responses, has been difficult, especially with those among us who have not gone beyond high school and who have or are working in jobs where there are layers of hierarchy and chain of command unlike anything in the professions. There is something inherent in the process of thinking critically that comes with professional formation, maybe of what you have touched on about "discernment", that seems to prepare people for such a liberal theological enterprise. <BR/><BR/>Of course, getting people to go to questions first is a spiritual matter for all of us--"why do you feel that way? did you always feel that way? how have you changed? etc." instead of immediately going to "i can't believe they think that way" or "i don't like it that they feel..." Here it just seems harder for the half of us not in the professions.<BR/><BR/>What helps though, here, and I think might elsewhere to get at this issue, is the role of the small group. In a good small group setting, as opposed to the standard Sunday worship and programming-is-what-we-are-all-about model, a lot of this gets faced and differences of all sorts are acknowledged and transcended.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02961769817864428015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-32353045615153388652007-04-23T00:17:00.000-04:002007-04-23T00:17:00.000-04:00I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking. Isn't ...I'm not arguing with you, I'm just asking. Isn't it true that different people like different things? I've sat around a table of UUs talking about our favorite parts of the service (we were trying to figure out what to leave out to shorten it). One person loved the silent meditation, another wouldn't miss it. One person loved the children's story time, another thought it distracting. Someone just loved the choir, another didn't. And on and on -- so how do you make a service more inspiring when there are so many different perceptions of what, exactly, is inspiring? Are we trying to have "something for everyone"? Then the services get too long and we wrestle with that. <BR/>Do they teach you in seminary what it is that gives people that feeling they want to walk out with?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-63325518133971647302007-04-22T11:28:00.000-04:002007-04-22T11:28:00.000-04:00Hi Doug~I wandered over via links from Cuumbaya & ...Hi Doug~<BR/><BR/>I wandered over via links from Cuumbaya & uuMomma.<BR/><BR/>The one thought i have right now is that, for myself, i'd never even heard of UU Churches until i left the South Side of Chicago/NW Indiana area.<BR/><BR/>I had gone from being raised Catholic to being sucked into a very cult-like church in the early 90's. In the late 90's, my employer in the Smith College area mentioned that her parents attended a UU and she thought i would fit in. I didn't check it out for another two-three years.<BR/><BR/>I ended up plugging into a Church that was within 20 minutes of where i'd grown up and lived for 20 years of my life. I never even realized the Church was there until i was specifically looking for a UU congregation.<BR/><BR/>I'm wondering how many people are like me, they don't even know that Unitarian Universalism is out there? They don't know that being UU is an option?<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the thought provoking post.<BR/><BR/>~Suz~Mauren Mureauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111364089835336251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-76406965384956355152007-04-22T11:24:00.000-04:002007-04-22T11:24:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mauren Mureauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111364089835336251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-82211189029808646152007-04-19T08:23:00.000-04:002007-04-19T08:23:00.000-04:00I'm wondering if Kim would react better to the wor...I'm wondering if Kim would react better to the word "inspiring" rather than "uplifting".<BR/><BR/>I think it's a common mistake (made by people on both sides of the argument) to reify "inspiration" -- as if some particular object or action in itself is inspiring. We can't make our services inspiring just by adding or removing something in the order of service.<BR/><BR/>I think it's easier to define "uninspiring": A service is uninspiring if, when it is over, the trajectory of my life continues unaltered -- not because I looked at my life and consciously affirmed it, but because it never seriously occurred to me that my life could be altered.<BR/><BR/>Inspiration can fail in a lot of different ways: For lack of ideas and direction, failure to bring abstract ideas down to earth, failure to raise motivation, and for lack of healing the wounds that keep us from moving.<BR/><BR/>As far as sermons that make people cry, I've never seen anyone break down during one of my sermons. (I've got a great view; I'm sure I'd notice.) But if I don't cry at some point during the writing process, the sermon probably isn't very good.Doug Muderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666144843949850394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-44270086087699860952007-04-18T14:45:00.000-04:002007-04-18T14:45:00.000-04:00Thanks, Doug, for your thoughtful response to my c...Thanks, Doug, for your thoughtful response to my comment. I guess my main concern is that anytime a church starts talking about specific groups that don't seem to be well represented, they run the risk of marginalizing those same people simply by categorizing them and thinking of them as "different from the rest of us."<BR/><BR/>And you're right, the appeal of more lively and uplifting services (and other interactions) does cut across boundaries-- which is the point, right?<BR/><BR/>Rather than focusing on the somewhat narrow dichotomy of Inspiration vs. Self-Control, I would suggest trying to deliver an authentic message whose power can be felt on several levels.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for raising a critical issue regarding the importance of ministering to everyone!<BR/><BR/>Kim, I guess my individual test of what consitutes an uplifting experience of church would be, "Did I leave the church feeling better able to face my life and the world than I did beforehand?" If we start out with intention in this direction, we won't please all the people all the time, but I think we'll be headed in a good direction.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-20579544700008678262007-04-18T14:21:00.000-04:002007-04-18T14:21:00.000-04:00I agree that "real, physical, emotional and spirit...<I>I agree that "real, physical, emotional and spiritual uplift" is an important part of the draw of conservative churches. </I><BR/><BR/>Is it possible that different people see different things as "real, physical, emotional and spiritual uplift"?<BR/>What is it that people see in conservative churches as "real, physical, emotional and spiritual uplift"? Is it lively singing? Is it candles and incense? Is it rhythmic, composed preaching? Is it the content? Is it the delivery? What is it?<BR/>Is it possible that Cool New England Intellectual Types (TM) see what UUism offers as "real, physical, emotional and spiritual uplift"?<BR/>There is a saying about multi-use tools that says if it does lots of things, it does no one of them well. I worry that if we try to be everything for everyone, we will do none of them well. What happens when what some people consider "real, physical, emotional and spiritual uplift", others consider embarrassingly demonstrative? do we just boot out the more inhibited members?<BR/>One of the most succinct comments I have heard was from a young lady in our congregation. She said, "I want a sermon that makes me cry." But different things make different people cry. Whom are we trying to serve?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-18554103553866099852007-04-17T10:58:00.000-04:002007-04-17T10:58:00.000-04:00I appreciate Jim's comment. There are a lot of cav...I appreciate Jim's comment. There are a lot of caveats I would have included if I weren't trying to shoehorn my main message into a 15-minute talk, and I'm sorry if I implied that he doesn't exist or is chopped liver.<BR/><BR/>I agree that "real, physical, emotional and spiritual uplift" is an important part of the draw of conservative churches. I didn't focus on that factor because I think it cuts across class boundaries. A lot of my professional class friends wish UU services were more full-spectrum uplifting, though for them paganism rather than fundamentalism is UU's competition.Doug Muderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666144843949850394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-41656608367931614812007-04-17T10:49:00.000-04:002007-04-17T10:49:00.000-04:00Shannon,My home town is Quincy, Illinois. I hope t...Shannon,<BR/><BR/>My home town is Quincy, Illinois. I hope to go back there frequently, so I hope the folks at the Unitarian Church of Quincy don't take offense at how I've characterized them. I've really enjoyed meeting the people there, and they've been very nice to me. And just because nobody walked up to me and said, "I work at the ADM plant" doesn't mean nobody does. That's just the impression I got.Doug Muderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666144843949850394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-78542620965301252752007-04-16T09:55:00.000-04:002007-04-16T09:55:00.000-04:00I am happy to have come across your blog this morn...I am happy to have come across your blog this morning. I am wondering where your home town is? I find this particularly relevant because I am a member of an emerging congregation in Mt. Vernon, IL. Trying to strike a balance, or create a congregation that does not cater to the professional class is an important initiative for us. Many of our members (out of 17 total) are more educated than others, while others are highly self-educated but with no college degree, and others are working class retirees who are for the first times in their lives reaching out to learn more about themselves and the world around them. It has been a real challenge, and one that we welcome, for our congregation to be welcoming and inclusive to everyone who walks through our doors. There are a lot of issues that we have to deal with in our small congregation and small town that I feel others in the wider UU spectrum are not comfortable dealing with.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, now Ia m just rambling- but thank you for writing this, posting it, and asking some hard questions.Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04963444556825071244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-41586602409338536322007-04-15T23:40:00.000-04:002007-04-15T23:40:00.000-04:00Thanks for this thought-provoking post. But I mus...Thanks for this thought-provoking post. But I must say that your argument just doesn’t work for me on several levels. For one thing, you seem to assume that your premise – that members of UU congregations are all “professionals” -- is universally or nearly universally true. There are many of us who are not professionals who participate actively and in important ways in our UU congregations and in our larger communities. Are we really just statistical blips? Or chopped liver?<BR/><BR/>It’s almost as if you’re proving your own assertions (that all UUs are self-involved, navel-staring professionals) by ignoring a significant group that’s already here and trying to work within many UU congregations.<BR/><BR/>Also, I don’t think you’ve nailed the appeal of many of the so-called fundamentalist churches to most of the members. You seem convinced that it’s the “Good vs. Evil” theology that draws and keeps members. I believe that it’s the experience of transformative spirituality – of real physical, emotional and spiritual uplift that people experience at church services and in other interactions with each other – that fills the pews (whether those pews are in fundamentalist churches or UU churches).<BR/><BR/>Every single person of any class in a given church faces a unique set of challenges. The church might be able to help a little bit with what you call “discernment” (but not much really, in my opinion), but it can help a lot with getting people ready to take action in their own lives and in the greater world.<BR/><BR/>My parents and grandparents went to tent meeting revivals not so much because they wanted to avoid going to hell, but because they needed to get charged up to do what needed to be done and to make meaningful connections with other church-goers and the larger community. And that’s pretty much why I go to church, too.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that theology is unimportant. But I do believe that tweaking our "message" or stance is not the best way to build a more diverse community that benefits everyone.<BR/><BR/>Let’s do some work together!Jim Magawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068431325315696624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-88787555944493268172007-04-15T23:18:00.000-04:002007-04-15T23:18:00.000-04:00As a middle class young adult that grew up in the ...As a middle class young adult that grew up in the UU church, I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm not disagreeing completely, but there seems to be a few things... missing?<BR/><BR/>This is not to say I'm comfortable in the congregation I grew up in, I'm not (they've become more elitist and classist since I left a few years ago for college) but... hmm.<BR/><BR/>~DonaldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-75901060009540340472007-04-15T21:03:00.000-04:002007-04-15T21:03:00.000-04:00Doug, this is a gift that comes as a punch in the ...Doug, this is a gift that comes as a punch in the stomach, but one that I appreciate getting.<BR/><BR/>It's also a beautiful piece of writing and I'm thrilled it will be going into the World. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for this wonderful piece.PeaceBanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431551457505981195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-77411950693502873952007-04-15T10:21:00.000-04:002007-04-15T10:21:00.000-04:00Kim asks: "Are you still going to do the other ser...Kim asks: "Are you still going to do the other sermon you alluded to then?"<BR/><BR/>Probably not. I started with that text and improved it to get this one. So if and when I preach on this topic again, I'll probably start with this text rather than go back to that one.Doug Muderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666144843949850394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-84377310637176179692007-04-15T10:20:00.000-04:002007-04-15T10:20:00.000-04:00Other interesting takes on UUism and class are Dav...Other interesting takes on UUism and class are David Bumbaugh's article <A HREF="http://www.meadville.edu/LL_JournalLR_v5n1_Bubaugh.htm " REL="nofollow"> Beyond the Seven Principles: the Core of Our Faith </A>, Virginia Wolf's sermon <A HREF="http://www.uucec.org/sermons/s022204.html" REL="nofollow"> Can We Talk?</A>, and PeaceBang's blog post <A HREF="http://peacebang.blogspot.com/2006/12/its-not-theology-its-class.html" REL="nofollow"> It's not Theology, It's Class.</A>Doug Muderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666144843949850394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-7436452137796374342007-04-13T17:20:00.000-04:002007-04-13T17:20:00.000-04:00congratulations on that! It clearly is an issue w...congratulations on that! <BR/>It clearly is an issue we need to have some dialog about. The letters to the editor about it should be really fun. <BR/>I'll probably send it out to the people on my email list who are UU, so they'll get a preview.<BR/>Are you still going to do the other sermon you alluded to then?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-57309629463030905532007-04-12T08:53:00.000-04:002007-04-12T08:53:00.000-04:00Kim,This is the direct descendant of the sermon I ...Kim,<BR/><BR/>This is the direct descendant of the sermon I alluded to in "Right and Left Together".<BR/><BR/>BTW, I just heard from the UU World editors that "UU & the Working Class" is going to appear in their Fall issue.Doug Muderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04666144843949850394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-16109488923120739602007-04-12T00:26:00.000-04:002007-04-12T00:26:00.000-04:00Great ideas - helped me to frame some thoughts and...Great ideas - helped me to frame some thoughts and questions I haven't yet been able to verbalize. I hope that we do in fact find--or develop--something to offer the working class as well as other people who are stuck in their various mazes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-75477956059323987362007-04-12T00:21:00.000-04:002007-04-12T00:21:00.000-04:00Is this the sermon you promised us about why when ...Is this the sermon you promised us about why when people seek out religions, they go to conservative religions rather than UU? <BR/>It has a very interesting perspective. I need to think about it for a while....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13399254.post-23379973389906291832007-04-11T15:05:00.000-04:002007-04-11T15:05:00.000-04:00This was extremely insightful. Thank you for shari...This was extremely insightful. Thank you for sharing it.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18040824813209082919noreply@blogger.com